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PureGro1

Evolution Vs Creationism Vs Evolution with a Intellegent Creator

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I see and hear alot of people talk about how Evolution is what science says- so it must be true!

 

I subscribe to a different thought, That is this...while we have seen natural evolution there is still much unexplained and Hypothesis is not the same as fact...I believe in evolution but only with an intelegent creator.

 

 

Fact: The universe began to exist, including time, space, matter and energy. Nature itself began to exist.

 

Fact: The universe is higly fine-tuned for our existence.

 

Fact: The DNA of the simplest life holds enough information to fill thousands of books.

 

These are facts that are not answerable by science. Science studies nature and thus can not address how nature began to exist. Science has discovered the fine-tuning of the universe but can not begin to explain why it is the way it is. And we know information does not come from non-intelligence. If you see a simple sentence you KNOW an intelligent being wrote that sentence. 20,000 books worth of information in the simplest life kind of screams out an intelligent designer.

 

It's not so much that those of religious faiths "deny" evolution. We deny it as fact when it comes to CREATION. Evolutionists can't even begin to hypothesize the jump from lifeless matter to life - or, for that matter, even explain from where that lifeless matter originated. Now, if we want to talk evolution in terms of certain animals dropping a tail or other body parts, losing/gaining certain abilities (like flying or swimming), etc., then we have fertile grounds for discussion. But an explosion of lifeless matter and energy CREATING life? Ummm... you're gonna have to prove that one to me!

 

Why is there such a natural order to things? For the universe to have such balance is UN-natural if one buys into the notion that this all just "happened by chance". Natural order doesn't just happen by chance.

 

The science is not with evolution. Evolution is the default because it is the only natural explanation that does not involve a Creator so it is the only acceptable answer for those who do not believe in God.

 

Doubt that? Let's hear from evolutionist Richard Lewinton, Harvard Professor, Geneticist, and Marxist.

 

‘We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism.

 

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.

 

There you go. It isn't that the science says this or that, it is that a Divine Foot will not be allowed in.

 

When you look at the fine-tuning of the universe and the incredible DNA code that holds thousands of books worth of information for even the simplest of life what do you do when the Divine Torso is in the door?

 

You bang more square pegs into round holes.

 

If I believed in evolution alone I would believe my wife, daughter and myself are the result of mindless processes and that our brains is where all of our thinking and feeling occurs, which of course means we are nothing more than a pre-programmed collection of electrochemical reactions with no purpose to our existence.....

 

I personally don't understand why people believe Creationism and Evolution are mutually exclusive. I believe that God created a seamless universe so complex and perfect that it defies our ability to completely comprehend it or see the "smoking gun" whereby it becomes obvious he just plopped Homo Sapiens down on this earth. The natural world and evolution are proof to me of God rather than something that refutes God's existence. I don't understand why some religious faiths attack it.

 

My issues with evolution are not Biblical. They are scientific. The fact is the probabilities against evolution are so high it requires a series of miracles of unfathomable proportions. Even atheists who believe in evolution will state this.

It is certainly possible that you could win the PowerBall jackpot 25 times in a row - roughly the odds of the existence of you, me, and everything we see happening by random cosmic chance, as one evolutionist-turned-ID scientist once explained it to me. The odds are totally astronomical... actually, beyond astronomical.

But don't get me wrong. I'm all for scientists to continue researching to find that perhaps we simply got really really really really really really really really really really REALLY lucky. The fallacy, of course, is that the theory of evolution, as Darwin developed it, does not explain CREATION or the origin of life. Darwin himself believed in God.

 

Nobody looks at a swiss watch with all it's intricate parts and wonders if there was a creator or whether the components and were somehow placed together by happenstance. The answer is assumed: an intelligent creation demands an intelligent creator.

 

So while we would scoff at those who tell us a swiss watch was created over time by happenstance, we are to assume an infinentely greater creation (humans) were created time and mutations?

 

For starters, the earth simply isn't old enough to witness the number of mutations a single cell organism or even a simple aqautic being such as a fish would have to undergo to finally become a human.

 

Evolution is not proven nor does it have overwhelming evidence of it's merits, in fact many of the key pieces of "evidence" such as Piltdown man, Java man, and Nebraska man (to name a few) were proven to be outright frauds. One of the latest was the fake Dino-bird. Many mathemeticians also reject evolution on statistical grounds where the chances of mutations occuring of the right order.

 

Creationalism, in the very least answers the idea of an inteligent creator for an intelligent creation, irregardless of whether the identity of the creator is known. Not knowing the identity of the watch maker does not take away from the logical conclusion that someone intelligent was behind it's design.

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I see and hear alot of people talk about how Evolution is what science says- so it must be true!

 

I subscribe to a different thought, That is this...while we have seen natural evolution there is still much unexplained and Hypothesis is not the same as fact...I believe in evolution but only with an intelegent creator.

 

 

Fact: The universe began to exist, including time, space, matter and energy. Nature itself began to exist.

 

Fact: The universe is higly fine-tuned for our existence.

 

Fact: The DNA of the simplest life holds enough information to fill thousands of books.

 

These are facts that are not answerable by science. Science studies nature and thus can not address how nature began to exist. Science has discovered the fine-tuning of the universe but can not begin to explain why it is the way it is. And we know information does not come from non-intelligence. If you see a simple sentence you KNOW an intelligent being wrote that sentence. 20,000 books worth of information in the simplest life kind of screams out an intelligent designer.

Cool thread man! :smileys-passing-joint:

The universe is not finely tuned for our existence. We'd die in an instant if we took steps on mostly all the planets we have found.

 

The reason I don't believe we came about from an intelligent being is that there's no proof behind it. I don't have any idea how the big bang came about but I do know science is quickly figuring it out. Lets give it some time. We used to believe the world was flat, so lets see if science can show us the truth behind existence.

 

 

 

It's not so much that those of religious faiths "deny" evolution. We deny it as fact when it comes to CREATION. Evolutionists can't even begin to hypothesize the jump from lifeless matter to life - or, for that matter, even explain from where that lifeless matter originated. Now, if we want to talk evolution in terms of certain animals dropping a tail or other body parts, losing/gaining certain abilities (like flying or swimming), etc., then we have fertile grounds for discussion. But an explosion of lifeless matter and energy CREATING life? Ummm... you're gonna have to prove that one to me!

Hmmm.. I wish I was smart enough to explain the theory behind the big bang lol. All I know is that the same way you are skeptical of the big bang due to lack proof, I'm skeptical of a god.

 

 

 

 

Why is there such a natural order to things? For the universe to have such balance is UN-natural if one buys into the notion that this all just "happened by chance". Natural order doesn't just happen by chance.

I used to think the same thing, but think of it this way.. Once life began to exist there were single cells floating around all over the universe. These were the first forms of life. And the evolution process began. They'd float around and try to survive. Weak cells died and strong cells found a place to live. There were many planets and meteorites that let the cells survive, and one was the earth. Some cells didn't survive on earth and some did.. The stronger cells got to go through evolution. So natural didn't just exist, but earth provided life for ou kind of cells.

 

Not sure if I explained that right haha. Here's a shorter version .. Natural order didn't form to us, we formed to it. If you think of it along the lines of it fitting us, then that would require something (god or such) to build a place to live just for us.

 

I'll be back again to finish my views on the rest of your post.. This is making me think.. Cool.

Edited by Mario
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Cool thread man! :smileys-passing-joint:

The universe is not finely tuned for our existence. We'd die in an instant if we took steps on mostly all the planets we have found.

 

Your right, What I really meant was Our earth is finely tuned for our existence-while we would die on mostly all planets we have found.

 

The reason I don't believe we came about from an intelligent being is that there's no proof behind it. I don't have any idea how the big bang came about but I do know science is quickly figuring it out. Lets give it some time. We used to believe the world was flat, so lets see if science can show us the truth behind existence.

 

Hmmm.. I wish I was smart enough to explain the theory behind the big bang lol. All I know is that the same way you are skeptical of the big bang due to lack proof, I'm skeptical of a god.

 

Fair enough! I dont think they will find it, But i was wrong once...lol so was Albert Einstien...

 

I am not an atheist, and I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn’t know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God.

– Albert Einstein, as quoted in Antony Flew’s book There Is a God: How the World’s Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind.

 

 

 

I used to think the same thing, but think of it this way.. Once life began to exist there were single cells floating around all over the universe. These were the first forms of life. And the evolution process began. They'd float around and try to survive. Weak cells died and strong cells found a place to live. There were many planets and meteorites that let the cells survive, and one was the earth. Some cells didn't survive on earth and some did.. The stronger cells got to go through evolution. So natural didn't just exist, but earth provided life for ou kind of cells.

 

I cant wrap my head around that- Mathematics study, and indeed many scientists are skeptical of the

time required to mutate even with in the same taxonical tree. Evolutionists insists that complex organisms today are a factor of a long series of gradually occuring positive (relative to the organism) mutations preserved by natural selection. The fact that not one genuine mutation occurring in the natural environment has been observed which was positive or beneficial (adding useful genetic information to an existing genetic code), does not deter them.

 

Take a simple organism composed of 200 components derived from a single component. That would require about 200 successful mutations, which as I alluded to earlier, is highly unlikely.

Assume that, at each mutational step, there is equally as much chance for it to be good as bad. Thus, the probability for the success of each mutation is assumed to be one out of two, or one-half. Elementary statistical theory shows that the probability of 200 successive mutations being successful is then (½)200, or one chance out of 1060. The number 1060, if written out, would be "one" followed by sixty "zeros." In other words, the chance that a 200-component organism could be formed by mutation and natural selection is less than one chance out of a trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion.

 

Now we humans are much more complex a system than a simple 200 component organism.

 

 

 

Not sure if I explained that right haha. Here's a shorter version .. Natural order didn't form to us, we formed to it. If you think of it along the lines of it fitting us, then that would require something (god or such) to build a place to live just for us.

 

Natural selection does not prove evolution (at least macro evolution) in the least. Natural selection involves existing DNA pools, no new organism or mutation is involved.

 

Natural selection does not create mutations, rather it may remove existing DNA from the pool. Even at this point, the removal of the castoff organism is likely to be contained within the local environment.

 

Natural selection does not create or change anything, It simply selects the best varieties to survive under current circumstances. All possibilities remain in the gene pool and continue to be part of the population but do not fare as well until conditions change again.

 

Take your typical "simple" single cell organism for instance. Energy is created in the Mitochondria, food created in the Chloroplasts, chemical removal completed by the Glogi Bodies, protein synthesized in Ribosomes, and there are many other components of this "simple" system that must mesh together for the organism to survive. Here's the point:

with all of our technology, we still don't have the intelligence to create even a single cell. Sure, we can clone existing organisms but the DNA for these operations must already exist. Even simple organisms are prohibitively complex – something Darwin could not have understood in his day.

 

Speaking of biological cells, we know they have the blueprints of their design, DNA. Did the sender randomly decode just the right information and the receiver just happen to decode the sequence correctly to continue the correct mutations?

 

As I have already stated, it is not the individual components that make the system intelligent. Evolutionists seem to always overlook this obvious conclusion. You can throw a word processor and trained chimpanzees in a room for billions of years and let them bang on the keyboards all they want. They may even be able to bang out a few words,

or even a few sentences if they are lucky. However, we know they will not be able to create A Charles Dickens novel, a Shakespeare or Bible because the components aren't the design: the intelligence is in the author.

 

Now if that’s not enough, think of the intelligence of the inter-system design. It is said that 1/3 of the food we eat was pollinated by bees. Now bees themselves are amazing designs with bodies designed to collect pollen from different plants and homing signals to get back home. But what about their place in the overall food production system? Scientists really never understood how they get back to the hive (still do not) but now we must think of it since they are such an essential part of food production. Now bees themselves don’t know this, and humans never really appreciated the process until several years ago, but the design of the earth’s plant pollination and cross fertilization process is intricate indeed.

 

 

I'll be back again to finish my views on the rest of your post.. This is making me think.. Cool.

 

LOL, hey im just hapy to talk to people other than those whos only reply is "Your an Idiot- go pray to your invisible leader, while we smart people decide how the world runs" haha... :smileys-passing-joint:

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Holy shit that's a low chance of positive mutations actually happening lol.

 

But.. but.. Well I just don't know dude. I never really thought too much on this subject. I need to gain some knowledge on this haha.

 

Why turn to god as an answer though? I was a STRONG believer like 3 months ago but idk.. I just don't like using god as an answer to problems. We've done that for so long in human history that we have fallen behind schedule in knowledge.

 

Oh yeah, I like not being called dumb either haha.. And it's good to talk to a religious person that doesn't snap on you for having a different opinion. Not to mention the new views you're giving me on this subject.

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Guest MellowFarmer

:smoking-hookah:

 

Over at Rollie I never considered anyone as more than a screen name until the spirit sometimes known as Hep and Gyro both pm'd an apology that made me finally conceptualize the other screen names as other actual humans -if this seems strange then I do hope you live somewhere other than a place like Cali where there is nothing keeping you indoors hunched over a computer or I mean I wish you all lived somewhere like here lol but this is my profound point.... Hep always did stand out as real in my head because correct me if I am wrong he was getting mad respect for his recent 180 on the god is great issue.... ? meaning he used to be one of the hard heads who had bothered to listen to the other side objectively and evolve his beliefs accordingly... which I will emphasize got mad respect HeHe so my point?

 

The brain is always evolving and if that isn't enough we often forget it is a muscle just like all the other muscles. It gets bigger and stronger with exorcise and weak and feeble with lack of exorcise or another way to think is if you work out you arms and neglect your legs how disproportionate they get just by a short time of unequal attention. I can only suggest Richard Dawkin's The Selfish Gene and The Law of Attraction specifically Esther Abraham Hicks to make sense of it all. Dawkin's wrote The God Delusion and has a great gift of explaining things like genes which to me are as understandable as invisible space daddies that I believe him in the he's an expert that makes sense sort of belief I still have yet to see proof of said genes but his book convinced me that genes are really what is running this whole biiological part of us down to who women want to have sex with based on what the partner's genes have to offer. The male of course is designed to seed the Best option so this is why they get the slut label but females we all know are much more particular so where the male will settle with the best match woman will immediately dismiss a guy as a potential mate within 3 seconds... I as a chick find no other reasonable solution for my body's fickleness and inconsistancies when it comes to who is fuckable... Dawkin's theory is the genes Know that the genes the potential mate has to offer are either going to benefit the offspring or not and well ladies? it makes sense doesn't it why that really awesome guy you could only be just friends with no matter how much you wish he did and those dumb losers got you so hot?

 

Schrooms! :post-40-0-86855700-1336573511: Weeee :smiley-rolling-joint: and the Law of Attraction says everything we have been told not to believe but wtf did they know ?

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Guest MellowFarmer
Why turn to god as an answer though? I was a STRONG believer like 3 months ago but idk.. I just don't like using god as an answer to problems. We've done that for so long in human history that we have fallen behind schedule in knowledge.
Matter is only energy condensed to a slow vibration. We are all One Source Energy experiencing life subjectively. There is no such thing as death. The reason Schrooms are illegal is because if everyone finally understood we are all really One then the Military Industrial Complex would crumple because no one is going to agree with nuking themselves.

 

God = Jesus = Holy Spirit

 

Jesus = His Brothers and Sisters (We are all the sons of god)

 

Jesus = God (the light of the world)

 

 

We are the creators of our reality. We are Source Energy expanding. Life is like a ride at an amusement park and when you choose to go on it you think it is real because that is how powerful our minds are.... but don't be afraid ever because it is not real it is just a ride and we can change it anytime we want-

 

http://youtu.be/iMUiwTubYu0

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Awww mellow, I was the first real online person to you haha. That's cool. I think you're awesome too :smileys-passing-joint:

post-335-0-14013600-1349595325.png

 

I gotta admit, I'm a bit confused on the gyro part lol.

 

And yeah, the brain is amazing huh?

I looked back on my threads and posts before I started gaining knowledge and I'd pretty much tell people to leave me alone when they'd have a different opinion than me. Ignorant little prick lol. Then I actually started hearing people out and was able to make my own decision. I stopped what was forced on me my whole life. It was a pretty damn weird process. Now I'm agnostic. Which is the most open minded a person can attempt to be IMO. It's been working pretty good for me. I hear out all sides of the story and it really helps me better myself. Lately I've been slacking on those books though haha.. I probably should read more to exercise my noggin lol.

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I dont want people think im a bible thumper or anything- I have read the books- Old and New Testement, and the Koran as well....

But im not a a church guy- I wasnt raised in a church and neither is my daughter, Its not that I hate or Dislike church so much as it is I have a very hard time with the bible aspect...

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I dont want people think im a bible thumper or anything- I have read the books- Old and New Testement, and the Koran as well....

But im not a a church guy- I wasnt raised in a church and neither is my daughter, Its not that I hate or Dislike church so much as it is I have a very hard time with the bible aspect...

Even if you were a bible thumper, you're cool IMO.

 

The problem I have with church is they interpret their version of the bible to match what they want.. And within each church is like a seperate cult. People go from church to church until they find one they like.. I just feel weird about that.

 

It may be due to some strange church experiences. One time I went in and after the preaching I met the priest in the back and asked him a few questions. Trying to find my path in life and stuff. Told him I was scared of burning in hell for eternity. Instead of comforting me, he agreed I would burn lol. Not so straight up like that, but he made his point clear.

 

Then another time I went, the priest went off for 30 minutes talking about how all the other churches aren't the church of god.. he was yelling it out too. Calling other churches, the church of satan. I was freaked out and quickly backed out hahahaha.

 

But I gotta admit I still go to church sometimes. Why? I go every once in a while just to talk to people who are having a rough time or maybe I'm having a rough time. In alot of churches, there's some really nice people that just wanna help others. That's about the only thing I like about churches though.

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Guest MellowFarmer

Mario man I can`t stop cracking up from your sig and I 2nd your last post for the most part.

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Guest MellowFarmer

For what it is worth this is my take on the struggle we all face with spirituality; we feel betrayed as we all know now we were lied to and not only that but most likely at an age when we believed in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny but they came clean about them but still insist on the rest being true so how can we believe anything on faith?

 

 

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so how can we believe anything on faith?

 

By having Faith..lol Its really hard to explain this, I will try but I understand it may not make sence to someone else...

 

I have many reasons why I believe there is an intellegent creator, Why I have Faith that an afterlife of some sort is given to those who keep their energy pure-is impossible to explain I guess.

I want that Faith because it means I one day see my Dad again- and my daughter will hopefully have that faith as well.

 

None of us know anything about death and what comes next...I prefer to think of it as a good thing...

 

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Guest MellowFarmer

I think I can help you out Pure quite randomly as it happens but I was diagnosed Adult Add which is likely how I missed this before and why I am reading an amazingly informative book by Thom Hartmann called 'The Edison Gene: ADHD and the Gift of the Hunter Gene' you can download here http://www.jpans.com/ebook/the-edison-gene/ I also recommend his book on Jefferson.

His thesis is that ADHD is really a set of needed qualities needed in those who were the Hunters of ancient societies that are not helpful in agricultural societies and therefore considered symtoms of a disease. It gets really interesting especially for us outcasts because of (pg 34) a new concept from a 1977 paper by Stephen Jay Gould and Niles Eldredge called puncuated equilibrium.

"Instead of the species changing slowly over a long peripds of time they said the archeological, paleontological, and anthropologistal records show that evolution happen instead in fits and starts most likely in response to sudden changes in the environment that kill off most of the species. Long periods of equilibrium abruptly crash, and out of the issuing chaos climb new forms that have been carrying previously ignored genetic mutations or the variations that allow survival because they're better it at it to the new conditions."

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Guest MellowFarmer

Sorry guys I am on the mobile again or I would explaun better but a lot of evidence points to us almost being wiped out a few times which also explains things like the pyranids.

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I never talk about religion or politics just two things a I usually disagree with everyone about.....

 

But i agree with ya 100% Pure, I believe in god but also the science behind the big bang and what not and if yu combind them together most qusetions get answered.

lol.. Good call. I've made more enemies than I have made friends talking about those subjects.

 

You guys are cool though, y'all don't take offense to different opinions.

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